Hi everyone,

Please can someone shed some light on how people ( preferably expats as I’m a Uk citizen moving to Spain ) actually manage to live and earn in Spain.

I have spent at least 8 solid hours surfing forums etc.. and there seem to be only 3 ways to work legally !

These are : Contract ( If you can find someone to give you a decent and meaningful one ) 
          : Open a business
          : Or become autonomo

As it is autonomo that I would require I looked further into the finer details,to find that I would need to pay between 175 and 260 Euros per month to the social security regardless of what I earn plus about 50 or 60 Euros to an accountant every month plus 20% tax on income earned plus VAT.

As a friend of mine said…........I can’t believe that everyone with a paintbrush,hammer,plumbers bag or a few english pupils is actually paying out nearly 300 Euros every month before expenses ,food,rent etc…I just refuse to believe it !

Well,I’m more interested in the comments on this forum .

What actually happens if you are registered as autonomo,is there room to live and pay all this or do I really need to accept that my friend is right and the big black economy is thriving much as it does in most countries.?

I want to be legal ...but how can I be with a low income to begin with and not a stash of money behind me to support the ss payments.

I welcome any constructive comments as I don’t want to enjoy my new country looking over my shoulder,taking the back roads to avoid the Gardia or just slowly sinking into working illegally like so many others….is there an alternative ?

Thank you for your replies in advance

I thought EU citizens don’t need a work permit? Maybe I’m confused… but I thought it’s only supposed to be really difficult if you’re a non-EU citizen, like myself :(

work permit are need for taxes No ....... if you from the EU there free .......

If you are an UK Citizen your legal to come here without Visa….

So you wont be illegal unless your reged as a Dangerous person etc…

Mac

Judging by my experiences with Brits working over here, they pay little heed to the legalities…
Almost every job is paid Cash in Hand, very seldom are written contracts made, very seldom are receipts given so the client has little or no comeback when things go wrong or the ‘tradesman’ reneges on deals made.
Most ‘tradesmen’ and I use the term very loosely, run around in highly illegal unregistered British cars or vans and pass themselves off as tourists if the need arises for immediate health problems, they don’t register for Spanish taxation or declare their income to the UK authorities either.

The point being of course that these people have so little regard for the Spanish Legal System that their clients have got no chance…

There are of course exceptions; there are a few honest people out here; unfortunately these have been among the first to succumb to ‘la crisis’ and have had to either jack it in and go back to the UK or join the ranks of the ‘others’...

fb

foxbat - 29 May 2009 02:34 AM

Judging by my experiences with Brits working over here, they pay little heed to the legalities…
Almost every job is paid Cash in Hand, very seldom are written contracts made, very seldom are receipts given so the client has little or no comeback when things go wrong or the ‘tradesman’ reneges on deals made.
Most ‘tradesmen’ and I use the term very loosely, run around in highly illegal unregistered British cars or vans and pass themselves off as tourists if the need arises for immediate health problems, they don’t register for Spanish taxation or declare their income to the UK authorities either.

The point being of course that these people have so little regard for the Spanish Legal System that their clients have got no chance…

There are of course exceptions; there are a few honest people out here; unfortunately these have been among the first to succumb to ‘la crisis’ and have had to either jack it in and go back to the UK or join the ranks of the ‘others’...

fb

a very interesting and relevant post….............

I’m in the situation where i run a successful internet based busienss in the uk that i can operate anywhere in the world.

we’re moving to spain and i am going to carry on the business HOWEVER

our accountant says we carry on paying tax and ni in the uk, but it appears that as far as the spanish are concerned, i can only do that for 6 months and then it has to become a spanish business? IS that correct?

thebigboss - 17 July 2009 04:35 PM

our accountant says we carry on paying tax and ni in the uk, but it appears that as far as the spanish are concerned, i can only do that for 6 months and then it has to become a spanish business? IS that correct?

Its a mined field.

Best advice is to seek professional advice either in the UK before you go or when you get there on your circumstances.

Tax is strict in both countries, they will not accept naivety and lack of knowledge as a defence neither will quoting “someone on a forum told me too” won`t stand much hope in court.

Frustrated - 06 April 2009 10:22 AM

What actually happens if you are registered as ss=“spellchecked_word”>autonomo</SPAN>,is there room to live and pay all this or do I really need to accept that my friend is right and the big black economy is thriving much as it does in most countries.?

The black economy is usually reserved for the workers, few legitimate businesses dare to avoid there duties.

They prefer to employ illegal workers and avoid tax that way.

If you don`t register with Seguridad Social you wont get free health care.

I want to be legal ...but how can I be with a low income to begin with and not a stash of money behind me to support the ss payments.

If you cannot afford to be self employed, then you don`t become self employed.

Benefits are few and far between, there is some help for grants etc for immigrants.

You`ll need fluent Spanish lingo to get them/find them.

But I`m feelin kind today so try these people.

http://www.microbanklacaixa.es/general/

I welcome any constructive comments as I don’t want to enjoy my new country looking over my shoulder,taking the back roads to avoid the Gardia or just slowly sinking into working illegally like so many others….is there an alternative ?

It is a legal requirement and rule of entry into any EU country by any EU citezen that the person can financially support themselves on entry to that country.

All EU countries can refuse and remove a person who is not able to financially support themselves.

Most don`t bother with the rule, but Spain is this week starting to look into regulating immigration from EU persons into Spain and they could legally impose a points system similar to Australia onto all EU migrants.

bigboss Hi, in answer to your question; I believe that to be the case.
If you intend settling here permanently the you have to register with the Spanish Taxman and the Spanish Social Security people.
You also need to register with the Spanish National Police firstly to get an NIE without which it is almost impossible to get anything done (like house purchase, installation of utilities electric,water, phone etc…)
Then within a presribed period you need to go back to the National Police to get a ‘certificado de residencia.’
You also need to register with your local town hall wherever you elect to live and be put on the ‘Padron’ (Epadronimiento) (like the Electoral Roll in the UK); it doesn’t do a lot for you but the local councils benefit by being able to get more cash from Regional Government for local services that are not covered by the Annual rates bills that are sent out; it does of course indicate to the local council the address to which to send the rates bills, though to be perfectly honest with you these rates bills are generally miniscule when compared with the Council Tax in England. My annuaul rates bill for my small house for this year is just over 120 euros…I was paying that every month in the UK!

So far as direct taxation is concerned I believe that what you have said is true but you need to talk to the UK Taxman…suggest tel 0151 210222 as a starting point…

hope some of this helps…

fb

i know what you mean but our accountant said UK and spain have a double tax treaty meaning that you only tax on earnings in ONE country not both and my uk business is exactly that, UK, based here, with british customers, who pay me in sterling, so i cant just close it down and start it up again in spain!

the national insurance people said i have to pay in spain not the uk but the tax say i have to carry on paying tax in the uk.

i am EXTREMELY confused.

thebigboss - 17 July 2009 05:09 PM

i am EXTREMELY confused.

I`m no expert.

But Spain takes issue with the fact your actually in Spain doin the work, although the company is based in the UK, your not.

I believe you can register autonomo and pay an amount to Spain, a small amount, based on your UK contributions.

Santi - 17 July 2009 06:01 PM

thebigboss - 17 July 2009 05:09 PM

i am EXTREMELY confused.

I`m no expert.

But Spain takes issue with the fact your actually in Spain doin the work, although the company is based in the UK, your not.

I believe you can register autonomo and pay an amount to Spain, a small amount, based on your UK contributions.

cheers. I reckon i need some professional advice on this, more than i have already got.

its daft, we’re all supposed to be european?!! One big happy family! (?)

I can tell you that the ammount you pay per month as a selfemployed person in Spain is ?250 a month.. I know doubt this will vary region to region but that is what I payed in Tarragona… ?250 covered everything including medical from social.

Mac

If your company is Uk registered you will pay UK taxes.

When you draw a salary from it that could be declared as income and declared to the Spanish tax man to pay Spanish income tax as a Spanish resident. (ie you decide to live here full time)

The main thing is to make sure that you pay somewhere and don’t use living in Spain as a way of not declaring anywhere. You don’t have to pay twice as your comments about the double taxation treaty are correct.

You are probably better off to continue paying your NI contributions in the UK, however that will not entitle you to Spanish national health cover after your initial period has expired. You could either pay as you go or take out a health insurance policy - or get treatment in the UK.

The system is really geared to people moving lock stock and barrel to another country but in your case, having the UK company that you want to use for income - you need to think it through and take professional advice.

PS You can choose what you decide to believe or not but the basic rate of social security payment for a Spanish self employed worker - autonomo, is in fact around 250 euros per month and many people do pay it for their health cover (all the family) and pension entitlements.

Gracias todos amigos, that’s great advice, it all helps thank you.

Deffo need some pro advice, on the case already & found out loads, but its not crystal clear just yet. As far as i can tell, i can either pay tax in the uk or in spain and the UK HMRC seem to be cool with that? I would have thought Spanish tax on the self employed is quite hefty, or is that not the case? I kno wthe national insurance is a lot, but would maybe cheaper to not pay it but to get private insurance instead? I’m fairly fit and only 39, so i’m not gonna need the max level of cover.

Anyone else think the same?