Hi all,
I hope I’m posting this in the best place, I’m new to the forum and most of the postings in the Technology section seem to be on broadband/TV/telecoms.

Anyway, I’ve bought an old townhouse in a village in Granada, and the mains supply is only 100 volts. I gather this was quite common in the old town houses. I know you can buy transformers to run mains voltage equipment, in fact I’ve bought one to run a fridge, as in that heat it was a pain in the bum without one.

For those familiar with electrics, there is a connection boxoutside the door of the house (techincally on the street, as it’s a townhouse) that has a cover missing and has 4 connections. There is 110v from any of the phases to neutral, and 220v across any 2 of the 3 phases. (Vey much like the UK 3 phase system, albeit with lower voltages). The (British) people I bought the house from had all the normal domestic appliances, so I’m guessing that they had simply moved over the wire from the neutral to one of the other phases, and put it back before they moved out. Eventually I’ll need it rewiring so I’ll have to get it upgraded at the same time, but in the meantimg I’mvery tempted to move the wire over myself, just to give me 220v at all the sockets. Has anyone else experienced this and done the same?

One fiinal question, on the subject of rewiring, I need an electrician, preferably through recommendation. Can anyone recommend a good one, in the region of Alcala La Real?

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

Steve

your logic is sh1t and what your talking about will blow someone up, you just get the wiring up graded though out the house as the voltage is not the problem is your amps which will be the problem. Too high a amp on the existing cables will set the place on fire. you can have a small cable with a 10000volts but only 00.01 of a amp. don’t confuse the two amps and volts are different.  The square of 400 is 110 volts which is split across the the three phases. you can’t just add a phase one on top of the other to make 220 volts you need to work out the tan and sin of the angle of incoming supply.
I see your logic on the moving of the neutral, but this leaves you with using the earth as a path of return. TT systems
  What comes in must go out. The problem where it goes too, is what I would be worried about back to the transformer or god knows then to the transformer.  What I’m saying is electrically will take the least path of resistance to get back to the transformer. It could jump to a metal water pipe or some other object in the ground. If someone touches this object then they are fried if they are not touching the ground. It seems unlikely but in reality is a more common problem then we like to admit. if you change over the cable you are responsible. If a qualified person of the trade does so then they and the company are responsible. trust me take the second option and get it in writing very clearly what has been done.  hope this helps. dax.

Well thanks for the reply at least.

Nothing wrong with the logic though - firstly in the UK there’s plenty of 415v 3phase equipment (motors etc) which have no neutral. Only if there was a neutral would there be a return path to the star point on the transformer.

Secondly, I appreciate it’s the current that’s important as far as cable capacity is concerned. But that’s irrelevant, it’s the voltage I want changed. The cables are small and I’d only be able to run low power appliances.

Thirdly, the square of 400 isn’t 110. The square root of 400 isn’t even 110. Where does the 400 come from anyway?

Also what does the tan and sin of the incoming supply matter? I’m not interested in the phase angle or the power factor, you’re just complicating matters unnecessarily.

I did ask for a recommendation for an electrician, the idea of switching the neutral to the other phase was simply that - an idea, as I suspect it’s what the previous owners must have done since they had all 240v appliances.

I’ve decided it’s a crap idea anyway though, as there would only be fuse protection on the 1st phase, the other 110v phase would be unprotected.

Like I said, thanks for the reply. I still need a sparky, preferably Spanish if anyone could recommend one, who is registered and can give me a boletin after rewiring it. I’m about 40km north of Grandada

Thanks

Steve

3 phases are made in the cycle of a generator (Delta) and provided to each house in star, one house one phase 230v second house230, third 230volts. the generation is in 3 phases of the cycle of the generating unit or power supply. A generator provides and a motor takes 3 phases of 230volt to run. A neutral is not needed as there is always a path for the wave t go return on the star point via the netural and earth connection, or on one of the other phases if in delta. 
A neutral is used in a 230 system to provide a point of return via the earth in a star system. the joint of the neutral and earth is done only by the power company at the meter point.  Neutral cables are now brought to all 3 phase machines even if its not needed. As its good practice to do so for further expansion and exchange of equipment, as most new motors require a single and three phase requirement, because of the electronics involved in their construction.

The voltage changes the amps change and visa versa this is very hard to explain as I’m unsure how to explain it in writing.

The idea is not crap and can be achieved but you must ensure that each wire are correctly fused for protection to the right setting and the in coming wires are fused also before they hit the mcb’s, rcd,or rcbo. its impossible to tell what you need as one would have to look at the set up of the board. 

The angle of factor is to do with the cycle of supply like in Ireland 50 hz . This can affect machinery in different ways, although most European equipment will tolerate between 50 and 60 hz r cycles per minute.

My guess is the wiring in the house is old anyway and would need to be up dated to modern specs of electrical installation. Any electrician in Spain should have his papers or a card like Ireland to prove he is a true electrician and can provide you with a safe living environment. And please be sure all circuits are tested before he leaves you after he has done his work. in Ireland its called the 2392-10 Level 2 Certificate in Fundamental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification city and guilds. Also there are numerous sites which will stat what a electrician must have to operate in you area, as different areas may have different specs of installation.

I shall send you the mathematics on the 400v system in clear English towards the end of the week.

I believe you system is 110volt because the system is a TN system supply. which is installed in very rocky area where earthing is hard to come by.I shall explain and get more information for you this week. 

Sorry i can not be of more help. sorry my English is not great and my Epanish is not much better.

Anyone reading this i would appreciate some help on my tread. http://www.spainexpat.com/spain/forum/viewthread/7678/ 

Thank you Dax.

Dax,

When you refer to the square of 400, I think what you’re refering to is the relationship with phase and line voltage, where the quare root of 3 (1.732) is significant.

For example, in the UK, 240 x 1.732 = 415

Thus, across 2 phases of the spanish system, where there’s 110v phase to neutral, you’d expect 110 x 1.732 which is only 190v, yet oddly there’s closer to 220.

When you mention the sin/tan of the supply, and phase angle, it’s not really relevant to the 50 or 60hz as that’s just the frequency. As far as I’m aware (and I’ve been wrong before!) the EU is all 50hz and the USA is the only major country I can think of that runs at 60hz?

Still no recommendations from anyone for a spanish sparky?

Hi…

When it comes to negotiating a new domestic contract with your chosen supplier, a full inspection of the existing set up will be carried out by them; they will dictate what needs to be done.

Presumably, other work will be carried out on the property and for this you will need planning permission from your local town hall. When the work is complete you will need a Licence of First Occupation which they will issue. You will need to provide a Technical Architects report, called a Certificado de Finale Obras, declaring that the work done is in accordance with the planning permission originally requested and in compliance with the latest Building regulations.

Before the electricity supplier will set up a domestic contract in your name, they will need a copy of the Licence of First Occupation and a copy of the ‘Boletin de Enganche’ an official document signed off by a qualified Electrician again stating that the installation is safe and in accordance with the latest rulings on electrical installations.

Initially you can set up an Obras (works) supply with your supplier but again they will dictate the type of supply and will inspect the installation. Obras supplies are metered in the normal manner of a standing charge, actual consumption, special electricity tax, meter rental and IVA. The obras contract has a specific life; it runs for a maximum of three years after which it must be either renewed or replaced with a normal domestic contract.

I am not an expert but I would think that it will be highly unlikely that the supplier would agree to modifications to a 100 v supply…either way you need to be talking to either Iberdrola or Sevillana-Endesa.

I can put you in touch with an English speaking, Spanish qualified and certificated electrician who can explain the process but he is well out of your area. If you would like to talk to him please pm me…

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Hi…

You might also like to talk to a regular contributor to this forum; his nick on this forum is ‘heath1974’

He is in the business of property reforms in the greater Granada area and is based in Loja. You can check out his site by looking for Granada Property Reform in the Business Services section of this forum.

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