Si te entiendo creo que te refieres al Montonero Comunista Zapatero del PSOE en eso estoy totalmente deacuerdo contigo Chico. Haber si los Espanoles se les prenden los cojones y vuelven a poner al el Partido Poplular ya que no veo el mismo impulso economico que se veia con Jose Maria Aznar.
Como decia mi Padre un Comunista bueno es un Comunista Muerto!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Viva la Democracia
The Expatriator - 19 October 2007 11:50 PM
I’m glad we’re in agreement on this, but if you guys want to discuss Zapatero and los politicos de Espa?a then you should start a new thread. 😊 I dare ya!
I’ll bite.
I totally disagree with you, Rokipatel. First, if that’s what your father said, then I’d think your father was a fascist. Traditionally the Communist is the Fascist’s eternal enemy. Second, Zapatero is from the Partido SOCIALISTA Obrero Espa?ol. Not communist. A water-downed socialist maybe, but not a communist. The leftists aren’t are all communists, just like not all the “populares” are fascists. Third, there’s room for improvement, of course, but I think Zapatero’s doing a pretty fine job. Even with the PP trying to discredit him at every turn, Zapatero is modernizing Spain (which is already very modern) in a way we can only dream about in the U.S. (Just look at gay marriage for a quick example.) Fourth, good riddance to Aznar! And who would seriously want Rajoy as president anyway?
P.S. Adrian, I AM American and I obviously didn’t vote for Bush.
Anyway, I’ll get back in my box now, but I’d be interested to hear if anyone had a reasoned opinion on the new political party Unidad, Progreso y Democracia (UPD). I haven’t made up my mind yet. Opinions on UPD anyone? De buen rollo, chicos.
I dunno…as an American I have some serious issues with Zapatero. My first impression of him was at the reviewing stand during the military day parade in Madrid several years ago(before he was president) where he decided not to stand as the US flag passed by. Now I’m no NRA card carrying conservative in fact after 17 years living in NYC I’d say I’m pretty liberal…and I dont like George Bush Jr at all…but he really insulted ALL Americans with that move and it shows his true colors…a knee jerk US basher. And he never apologized. And just look at his friends…Castro, Ch?vez…real democracy loving folks.
I just dont get the idea of breaking Spain up…what do you gain? My example of the American take on this is to look at Texas, a State where folks have a real pride of place, they consider themseves Texans but also Americans…it is possible you know. I think that the folks who want “independence” from Spain are really out for their own agenda and power, period. It’s that transparent. Zapatero simply feeds into this nonsense to gain votes knowing full well that these places will never break away….ever. In the end he’s a politician like all of them, left, right, communist, fascist….knuckleheads. If you depend on the government to make your life full and happy…yikes…I just want them to stay out of my hair so I can do what I have to to get by and maybe even thrive…how about that.
I think that the style of policitcs is one of the worst things about Spain. Everything is either black or white - PP says up PSOE says down, PSOE says yes and PP says no….why? dunno, that’s just the way it goes. Shades of grey do not exist! One of the saddest things that I have seen here was after the bombing at T4, when the two parties couldn’t even put aside their differences for a day and provide a NEUTRAL ground for a demonstration. Partisan politics at their worst.
As for independence of Euskadi and/or Catalunia…I think that comparing them to Texas is taking an approach a little too simplistic. These two regions have distinctive langauges and cultures. They have enjoyed periods of self autonomy and also suffered repression and persecution. I think that the recently proposed referendum for Basque independence was one of the sanest ideas that politicians have had in a long time. Of course they’ll never let it go ahead- the constituci?n says that Spain is “one and indivisable”....but more importantly because they know exactly what the people would chose… oh yeah, and that’s were all the money is.
Kinda looks like the democratic versus republican party back home, with US-creep arriving in Spain,no? Honestly, I’ve never heard Rajoy say anything positive on why anyone should vote for the PP. I only hear him bash the PSOE and Zapatero in particular. Instead of negative campaigning, how about pumping up your own party???
I dunno…as an American I have some serious issues with Zapatero. And just look at his friends…Castro, Ch?vez…real democracy loving folks.
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Umm.. Maybe you should look at United States’ friends first, real democracy loving folks like the Saudi Royal family, known for crushing dissent at home and supporting radical madrassas abroad. And how about America’s best friend and partner in the “War on Terror”, a free, democratic country called Pakistan… lol.
Dreamer, I’m going to have to disagree with you on that comment. “The only good communist is a dead communist” is a quote my grandpa regularly uses, and he is most definitely not a fascist (he actually delt with real communists in Cuba). I’ve found that a lot of Europeans have a misguided view on American politics, such as, if you are against taxes and socialized health care, then you MUST be a war loving religious lunatic. That is not the case! There are people like me who believe in personal responsibility, who understand the the more power you give government to run your life and take care of you, the more power they will have to control you. I am against welfare, national health care, taxes, ect because I understand that if I want a good life, I have to work for it and not expect to be cared for by the stolen money’s of others. Taxation is simply legalized theft, and you have no choice in the matter. Don’t pay? Go to jail. That’s not a very fee way of operation things. I will take your gay marriage example to task; the main issue with that is the fact that you leave it up to the government to run to part of your life. If marriage ceased to be a function of government, anyone could get married to anyone they wanted to! So instead of lobbying for gay marriage, I lobby to get marriage out of the hands of government.
Anyway, that’s just one example. I hope this can shed some light on a very little understood aspect of American political philosophy: Libertarianism.
I just dont get the idea of breaking Spain up…what do you gain? My example of the American take on this is to look at Texas, a State where folks have a real pride of place, they consider themseves Texans but also Americans…it is possible you know. I think that the folks who want “independence” from Spain are really out for their own agenda and power, period. It’s that transparent. Zapatero simply feeds into this nonsense to gain votes knowing full well that these places will never break away….ever.
kelder - 30 October 2007 07:08 PM
As for independence of Euskadi and/or Catalunia…I think that comparing them to Texas is taking an approach a little too simplistic. These two regions have distinctive langauges and cultures. They have enjoyed periods of self autonomy and also suffered repression and persecution. I think that the recently proposed referendum for Basque independence was one of the sanest ideas that politicians have had in a long time. Of course they’ll never let it go ahead- the constituci?n says that Spain is “one and indivisable”....but more importantly because they know exactly what the people would chose… oh yeah, and that’s were all the money is.
I don’t think these places will break away either, but it’s a symbiotic relationship. The nationalist parties are important parties ? as far as minority parties go ? and the bigger parties have to cater to them sometimes in order to get certain things done. For the more noise the nationalists make, the more they get taken seriously (or at least taken into account). I don’t know, maybe I have a skewed view on this, but I don’t think Euskadi and Catalunya REALLY want to break away. Sure, some people do want that, but I don’t think most people there do. As a Catalan friend of mine said, It’s better to keep asking for forty things when you only want twenty because you know that you might only end up with ten anyway.
Rigoberto: Okay, maybe not everyone who says that is a fascist. 😊 But I did enjoy your post.
The amount of American and Spanish bureaucracy I’ve had to face in the last year and a half on a variety of issues makes it tempting to agree with you and wonder why everyone won’t just let me do what I want to do without heaps of paperwork at every turn, but government *is* practical. (Wait, did I just say that?)
I disagree with you about taxes being theft. Taxes go to things like schools (and also wars and stupid things too, depending on the government we’re talking about, but that’s where voting and lobbying come in). I think that sometimes, as in the case of education, the common good supersedes personal responsibility. Most people don’t think about the common good. The government ? in theory anyway ? is there to guarantee it. As a small business owner I can tell you from experience that there are all types of people out there and sometimes personal responsibility just doesn’t cut it. The vast majority of my customers are great people and pay on time, but I’ve had two customers who loved my work, racked up a large tab, and then decided not to pay for no good reason. Conclusion: Sometimes you can do everything right and still get screwed. That’s another reason why there needs to be a higher power. And I’m sure my roommate, who is pulling his hair out over his stalker (whose latest stunt was breaking into our house a week and a half ago), would agree. As far as I’m concerned, funding the police so that they come when you call them is the best tax expenditure ever.
I don’t drive so I might be tempted to say, Why should I pay for everyone else’s roads? But I think it’s like having to put up with both the good and the bad so that we can all still play ball, instead of one person just taking the ball home with them. The fact is that I’m happy to contribute to education and health care for everyone (and contribute to consumer and environmental safety bureaus, etc.), and for safety nets. I think you can only take an optimal level of personal responsibility once you have the proper tools. And where do you get the proper tools unless someone else helps you get them? (Whether that’s family, neighbors, government, or whatever.) I do certainly agree with taking personal responsibility, but only up to a certain point. Sometimes ? not always ? there are forces at work greater than you. And that’s not an excuse, it’s a fact.
You shouldn’t have to pay for other people’s roads. Had the roads been built by a private corporation, and a fee been used to recoup profit, only those who used the roads would pay for it’s maintenance. I don’t know how it works in Spain, but in the U.S. we pay for roads by sales tax, so it’s basically a tax on goods and services, not gross income (my beef is with income tax). In my opinion the government exists to provide two things, one, protect a country’s sovereignty; two, to enforce contracts. That’s it. The idea that government should provide health care, food, school, ect is dangerous in my book. Through out history, Government has only proven to be incompetent, and the more money you give them the more incompetent they become. School could be easily provide by private entities, which would be better because it would provide incentive to improve education. Do you think parents would pay a school who’s performance was less than spectacular? With a public school, there is no incentive to improve. In fact, the worse you perform the more money you get! How is that going to solve anything? Any time government’s subsidies something, it gets worse. What medical breakthroughs have been realized with socialized medicine? Not very many. You have you money taken by the government, and you may believe it’s going to help people, but like in my case, it’s being used to invade foreign countries. I don’t approve; but what can I do about it? If I stop paying, I go to jail. I consider tax theft, because you are not given a choice to pay it or not. I think thats a bit for now, I think if you visit this website you will get a better appreciation for how people like me think.
I love a good political depate, but have to admit a certain amount of apethy towards voting on my part.
It is probably because of the way UK politics has evolved that has lead to this. It’s not just me either, voting figures are continually dropping, despite a steady rise in population.
You used to have a clear left (Labour) - centre (Liberal Democrats) and right (Conservatives) as the top three political parties. In truth, the left and right have moved towards the centre ground, yet the most amusing thing for me is that the centre party, the Liberal Democrats, have not won an election since pre-WW2.
I’ve only ever voted once, in a local election, and I voted for a Liberal Democrat candidate. He did actually win, making my only ever vote cast an effective one, but I have to be honest and say that it was’nt the party I voted for, it was the man. He was the only candidate who actually lived in the ward he represented, he genuinely cared about his community and wanted to improve things and perhaps most importantly, he actually did what he said he was going to do.
He was also the only candidate that knocked on my front door polling for votes. I was actually studying politics at the time and was impressed with how he answered my questions.
I have to say if anything, studying politics actually put me off voting! When I began to understand what was actually going on, it probably made me mistrust politicians in general more.
With regards to politics in Spain, I have to be honest and say that I know very little, but I would be concerned if the best the opposition leader could come up with was to slate everything the current leader does or says, for the sake of it.
My Spanish friends I occasionally speak to about politics tell me that generally, the politicians are quite good, and I’m inclined to agree. Since I’ve moved to Spain, I’m continually impressed to “see” things happening and not just vote winning promises.
Now… just to add something that’s not been mentioned….
Does’nt Zapatero have a striking resemblance to Mr. Bean :lol:
When I pointed this out in a bar one night to the locals, they thought it was hillarious and every time he’s on TV in the bar, they shout “MR. BEAN”.
I do hope it does’nt spread… I might get arrested for treason or something!!
IMHO, voter apathy among the educated seems to be such a common theme these days, it makes me wonder if we’re heading towards a new era of intellectual oligarchical revival. Knowing that an educated vote will be out voted 10 to 1 by the gullible masses makes me wonder how long until the system really breaks.
Knowing that an educated vote will be out voted 10 to 1 by the gullible masses makes me wonder how long until the system really breaks.
I think that is exactly the problem with political systems in many countries. However, I personally feel that this works to the advantage of powerful politicians and those with financial interests in politics and would therefore be a system very difficult to break.
As a socialist I am relatively pleased with Zapatero’s political stance, given the tightrope he is forced to tread. And yes, I too am sickened by the ‘we can’t say much about our own policies so lets have another go at Zapatero’ attitude of the PP. The whole scenario is so similar to the way politics has been conducted in the UK for years. But I would never see Zapatero even remotely as a communist. Yes, he is far more left wing than ‘New Labour’ in the UK, but so would be Atilla the Hun.
And Heath, I noticed that uncanny resemblance a while ago .... and if you read my blog (not recently updated I’m afraid) you may just recognise who I am…....
For those on the forum who are wondering, Zania lives about 10 minutes away in a neighbouring village, where I have to say - the bar in the central square, serves some of the best tapas around. You could literally “live” on the tapas there heh!!
When I watched the charismatic Se?or Mariano Rajoy’s concession speech yesterday accepting his defeat in the general elections, I couldn’t help but shudder at the sight of his supporters waving spanish flags with the bull emblazoned in the middle of it. I know Americans love to wave their flag at any occasion. I have relatives in Orange County, California, who, unfortunately, have a neighbor whose house is decorated with more than 15 flags and other red-white-and-blue lawn adornments. When I see the die-hard Pperos (and you don’t see them very often here in Catalonia) at demonstrations, it’s hard for me to think of them as being center-right… Rajoy thought that waving the Spanish flag, promoting his xenophobic immigrant’s contract, and undoing same-sex marriage would be enough to court the votes of the majority of Spanish citizens…
