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Humanists in the Costa del Sol?
Posted: 07 April 2008 01:50 PM  
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Are there any humanists, rationalists, secularists, atheists, agnostics, skeptics, freethinkers, and the like in the Costa del Sol?
If so I have just started a Yahoo group which you can find here PM for more
The idea of the group is to allow humanists in the region to be in contact and exchange views and ideas, and with sufficient interest it may be possible to organise meetings.
Please join the group if this subject interests you.

Edited by Jurdy NO LIVE LINKS PLEASE

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/costadelsolhumanists/
you will have to sing in to yahoo are sing up for an account

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Posted: 16 April 2008 02:24 PM   [ # 1 ]  
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Well, I’m none of those.

My problem with humanists is that I am sure that certain noble qualities in humans are illogical.

Example,

Based on evolutionary theory and survival of the fittest it would be logical and thus morally ok for some humans who consider themselves superior to destroy others who are using up resources, it’s fair competition after all. Killing is also natural.

There is no logical evidence that a human life should be worth more than, say, a dog’s life. Taken at its base Humanism is not “humane” in my opinion.

What would be the logical justification for saving someone else’s life? For example, a wealthy, healthy man risking his life to save an elderly person’s life in the event of an accident? Humanism wouldn’t agree with such an action yet I believe in a noble quality in humans that transcends logic - selflessness.

Another big problem I have with the Humanist view is that what can rationally be inferred today is different than what could rationally be inferred in the past. Basing your belief system on something that changes it’s foundations based on what we think we know today doesn’t sound very solid. I believe in noble human qualities that are the same today as they were thousands of years ago: kindness, forgiveness, patience, friendliness, love, etc. Many of which have no “rational” explanation to date.

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Posted: 16 April 2008 07:13 PM   [ # 2 ]  
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Marcosll - 16 April 2008 02:24 PM

Well, I’m none of those.

My problem with humanists is that I am sure that certain noble qualities in humans are illogical.

Example,

Based on evolutionary theory and survival of the fittest it would be logical and thus morally ok for some humans who consider themselves superior to destroy others who are using up resources, it’s fair competition after all. Killing is also natural.

There is no logical evidence that a human life should be worth more than, say, a dog’s life. Taken at its base Humanism is not “humane” in my opinion.

What would be the logical justification for saving someone else’s life? For example, a wealthy, healthy man risking his life to save an elderly person’s life in the event of an accident? Humanism wouldn’t agree with such an action yet I believe in a noble quality in humans that transcends logic - selflessness.

Another big problem I have with the Humanist view is that what can rationally be inferred today is different than what could rationally be inferred in the past. Basing your belief system on something that changes it’s foundations based on what we think we know today doesn’t sound very solid. I believe in noble human qualities that are the same today as they were thousands of years ago: kindness, forgiveness, patience, friendliness, love, etc. Many of which have no “rational” explanation to date.

I think all Syberian is looking for is fellow thinkers who don’t buy the God stuff, so allow him a bit of slack on the words.  My favourite term for my own lack of faith is “theological non-cognitivism”.  This postulates that, as all language associated with religion is by definition meaningless, there’s no point in using it.  Ergo, you can’t usefully talk about religion because it’s nonsense.  Morality, and more specifically why we don’t all kill each other, is a different subject all together.

Anyway, I think you’ll find the Costa del Sol a happily godless zone in the most part.

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Posted: 16 April 2008 07:49 PM   [ # 3 ]  
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Quick note to Jurdy,

That live link was actually useful why was it removed? It was related to his post and, if I remember correctly, it was intended for people on the Costa del Sol.

To Matt,

I was just letting the original poster know my thoughts about the humanist way of thinking since it’s what his link is about.

As for “all language associated with religion is by definition meaningless” I could just as easily tell you that a life without a spirit is meaningless.

The last sentence is implying that god and happiness are mutually exclusive? Don’t people’s experiences prove the inverse?

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Posted: 16 April 2008 08:18 PM   [ # 4 ]  
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Marcosll - 16 April 2008 07:49 PM

As for “all language associated with religion is by definition meaningless” I could just as easily tell you that a life without a spirit is meaningless.

The last sentence is implying that god and happiness are mutually exclusive? Don’t people’s experiences prove the inverse?

Yeah, you could easily tell me that “a life without a spirit is meaningless”, but as I don’t accept the idea of a spirit, it wouldn’t make any sense. So you prove my point. 

As for my last sentence, I have some very happy friends who profess religious faith and I am delighted for them - just because they put two and two together to make five doesn’t mean they’re unhappy; on the contrary, it probably makes it easier for them to be satisfied with life. All I meant by “happily godless” in that context is that in my experience, the Costa del Sol is a cheerfully materialistic place where religion has relatively little influence on daily life, at least by Spanish standards.  But I may be wrong, I don’t know the Costa much….

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Posted: 17 April 2008 08:07 PM   [ # 5 ]  
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Ok so how come you have to be a secularist, atheist, agnostic, etc. to be a freethinker and rationalist?  I believe in God and the Bible but not mindless religion.  I also believe in studying the facts and finding answers.

There are quite a lot of scientists and intellectuals who are born again believers.  Please refer to the book the Case for Christ (Lee Strobel) written by a well-known journalist non-believer who turned to Jesus after fully researching Him with accredited, highly educated scientists.

Btw, God never promises complete happiness until we’re with Him.  Here on earth He only promises inner peace.

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A word is dead when it is said, some say.  I say it just begins to live that day.
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Posted: 18 April 2008 01:13 PM   [ # 6 ]  
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Very good point Rubi.

It may well be possible for an individual to logically infer that god exists.

Just a quick search on google resulted in:

http://www.self-realization.com/articles/proof_God.htm

“St. Thomas Aquinas and his five proofs for the Existence of God:
1.  The fact of change proves an ultimate agent of change!
2.  The chain of causation proves a first cause that needs to be uncaused to
    end the otherwise endless chain of events!
3.  The contingent facts of the world require an ultimate Being!
4.  The fact of graduation of things as higher and lower suggests Perfected
    Being at the top of the hierarchy!
5.  The order and design found in nature suggest a highest Being at the Source!”

a bit further down:

“Muslim philosophers argued: If the universe had a beginning at all, the beginning cannot rest on nothingness but God. If the universe had, instead, an infinite past and is without beginning and uncreated, then it is impossible to have arrived at the present moment, in the same way as it is impossible to jump out of a bottomless pit.”

The second one I found talks about inductive inference

http://www.gradresources.org/worldview_articles/bog.shtml


It’s strange how after thousands of years of logical thought and discussion we are no closer to proving or disproving the existence of god.

I think we can all agree that there is an energy that drives the universe and life. An energy of existence. Whether it’s “the force” or “god” or whatever you want to call it, it’s real.

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Posted: 02 July 2009 12:27 AM   [ # 7 ]  
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I am an American Atheist. I have tried in my youth to attend church services, I prayed and tried to be ‘religious’. But, it felt 100 percent unnatural to me, personally. When I prayed, I felt silly. When I talked about God or Gods, there was just something that constantly irked me. After attending a church service with one of my old friends (mind you this was many years ago) here’s how his sermon proceeded to our youth group:

They went to a local Theme Park/Amusement Park (much like Tivoli in Spain except a little smaller). Well, they (the church group) ‘just happened’ to go on the same day as a Gay Pride event being held there. He continued to say that the group opened their Bibles and started to preach against the ‘Sin’ that those people were committing.

That was ‘the last straw’. After having all this internal conflict and hearing that (since I, myself, am homosexual). I stopped going and realized that when I stopped believing in higher conscious powers that I instantly became more at peace with myself. No more did I pray and feel silly, no more talking about God or Gods. I was happy and no more conflict.

Now, that is just what works for me. But, I did have a conversation with that one friend not too long ago about his religious belief:

I asked him, “What if someone who doesn’t have your belief does so much good in the world (public service, charity, dedication of personal time, basically is the definition of a ‘Sant’)? Does that mean that they will, no matter how much good they do and (supposing) they do not do wrong (or at least mortal wrong), eventually still go to ‘Hell’ just because they don’t share your religious beliefs?

He did not have an answer for that. He just remained silent and did not know what to respond with.

I then asked, “How can you say that your belief is the only belief anyone should have? Whenever there are so many different religious beliefs in this world (just in modern times, not even including ancient pagan beliefs and indigenous beliefs), how can you say that your small church, in your small town, in your small state, in your small country, in your small continent, in your small planet, in this small solar system, in this small galaxy, in the ever expanding universe…that your belief is the only belief anyone should ever have?

His response was, and I am not exaggerating
:

“You just have to know Jesus. You don’t know Jesus so you wouldn’t understand.

I believe in doing good for people. I believe that you should try and leave this world better for the next person who comes into it. I don’t believe that greed or envy will help our world. I do believe in stem cell research for the cure and treatment of horrible diseases that mankind is experiencing. I believe that science can be both a tool and a weapon, but our mission should be to resist the use of it as a weapon. I believe the same about religion. Religion can give us an ability to have short term answers for things that we do not yet understand and help provide framework for that understanding. But, it should be our mission to resist the use of it as a weapon, and our mission to understand that it has a time and place and whenever the time comes, to discontinue its use. (To everything there is a season, and a time for everything under the heavens). I believe in equality for all persons except those who wish to use their beliefs as a way keep others disenfranchised. I believe that there are powers beyond our comprehension and powers we cannot even realize. But, I do not believe that those powers have a conscious will or desire.

I do apologize if the above is unsettling to you, the reader. However, going through life, I have found the above to be correct more times than incorrect. Not saying it’s a universal truth.

Are non-religious people discriminated against or treated differently in Spain (in general)?

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Posted: 02 July 2009 03:27 PM   [ # 8 ]  
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Religious or not religious. Its all just opinions.

?Opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one!?

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Posted: 02 July 2009 05:20 PM   [ # 9 ]  
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Warren P - 02 July 2009 03:27 PM

Religious or not religious. Its all just opinions.

?Opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one!?

good one Ja ja ja

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Posted: 02 July 2009 08:34 PM   [ # 10 ]  
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Warren P - 02 July 2009 03:27 PM

Religious or not religious. Its all just opinions.

?Opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one!?

So does that mean that Spaniards, in general, do not really care what someone believes just as long as its not being pushed? I just don’t want to be socially ostracized like I am in America, if religion does happen to wind up in conversation.

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Posted: 03 July 2009 03:25 PM   [ # 11 ]  
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AscottW - 02 July 2009 08:34 PM
Warren P - 02 July 2009 03:27 PM

Religious or not religious. Its all just opinions.

?Opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one!?

So does that mean that Spaniards, in general, do not really care what someone believes just as long as its not being pushed?

I really couldn’t tell you what the Spanish or even the Brits for that matter generaly believe.

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Posted: 09 July 2009 07:37 PM   [ # 12 ]  
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Become a Bright !

http://www.the-brights.net

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Posted: 30 November 2009 11:13 PM   [ # 13 ]  
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Call me a skeptic, freethinker or just about anything but PLEASE don’t call me a bright!!!

I would be interested in skeptical discussion on anything that skeptics normally discuss including Religion, Quack Medicine, Conspiracy Theories, Paranormal, Spiritism - anything like that.

To start it off, is anyone aware if Spain enforces the EU rule that paranormal and spiritual entertainers including Tarot and Palm readers and psychics and mediums have to display a “For Entertainment Purposes Only” notice at the venue?

Has anyone been following the Homeopathy discussion in the Science and Technology committee in Parliament?  It’s a real laugh.  I’ll see if I can find some links.

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Posted: 01 December 2009 03:52 PM   [ # 14 ]  
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AscottW - 02 July 2009 08:34 PM
Warren P - 02 July 2009 03:27 PM

Religious or not religious. Its all just opinions.

?Opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one!?

So does that mean that Spaniards, in general, do not really care what someone believes just as long as its not being pushed? I just don’t want to be socially ostracized like I am in America, if religion does happen to wind up in conversation.

spain is a country of contrasts.

I have found most spanish to be quite racist when refering to (for example) moroccans, but in the following sentence refering to their lovely son-in-law mustafa.

I have found many spanish to be very pro-family and catholic, yet they legalize gay marriage.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 03:04 AM   [ # 15 ]  
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jimenato - 30 November 2009 11:13 PM

Call me a skeptic, freethinker or just about anything but PLEASE don’t call me a bright!!!

I would be interested in skeptical discussion on anything that skeptics normally discuss including Religion, Quack Medicine, Conspiracy Theories, Paranormal, Spiritism - anything like that.

To start it off, is anyone aware if Spain enforces the EU rule that paranormal and spiritual entertainers including Tarot and Palm readers and psychics and mediums have to display a “For Entertainment Purposes Only” notice at the venue?

Has anyone been following the Homeopathy discussion in the Science and Technology committee in Parliament?  It’s a real laugh.  I’ll see if I can find some links.

ERRRR I was talking to the original poster. Whats your problem ??  I don’t agree with you therefore you diss me ??  Are you afraid your thoughts/beliefs are so weak they dont stand up. YEA I THOUGHT SO. Go pray you dickhead.

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