I am new to these forums so i hope i am posting in the right place.
I moved to Barcelona 5 years ago since then i have witnessed what i recognize is persecution (in the causing pesky nuisances ) by Catalans IN Barcelona SPAIN towards anyone who does not fit there NUMERIC IDEOLOGIES.
Ill give a example, my wife is CATALAN., her father was born in Barcelona, her grandfathers on both side of her family where prisoners of war for fighting against the Nazi’s, especially Franco who forced people not to speak this language, yet her other relatives claim Franco did good works in Spain while not much was changed since until several years ago, some of them who even live on our street want nothing to do with me since i am from Greece while assuming i am a Brit in disguise from my english and they never visited 3 kids we had here in Barcelona since they where born but only seen us on the street walking by and told other relatives about it .
Everyday i see horrible persecution on the streets like old people hitting kids riding bikes on sidewalks, employees at supermarkets claiming security guards dont do there jobs to get them fired or exchanged for a Catalan guard instead of another national., i have seen some employees open products and putting them back half eaten to frame one guard when i was shopping, this one security guard told me what the company he works for believed was going on and his union protected him., i witnessed employees at Consum and Bon Prue harass customers too who where chinese or other foreign nationals living in Barcelona saying again that its like this in Catalonia.
I can list around 8 times i have seen guys hit girls on the sidewalk, for things like what they wear or been on a bike again even on the street., am i the only person who sees all this., this is what worried me once., i wanted to hear what you all thought of this.
the lat 2 incidents i had where at supermarkets, i myself was accused of altering the prices for bananas cause i put them inside a bag, they barely fit but the woman insisted i was almost stealing, also 2 Spaniards had a argument with the same woman at the produce section over her not been spanish but catalan, this forced me to demand a “rojas deceleration” and especially after the few times i asked for the papers and they said they dont have them and it does not work like that in Catalunya,
I had to get the police involved for it which told me how bad it is out here, the cops said its a crime which they need to hear about, the stores will get a fine for refusing to give this paper to me and face legal charges, they said that the highest reports of complaints are Catalans abusing others civil rights in stance to claim they are first class citizens and going above the law or simply customers been short changed at touristic places, then its pick pockets, drunk driving etc.
Gabriel.. This is shocking! .. But sadly does not surprize me??? Do you think it is just in the area you live.. or is it like this in the whole city? I stayed for a short while in the city and noticed that people wanted -ney demanded - that everything was in Catalan as well as Castillian…. I have heard too that to get by in many situations in the city - if you don’t speak/understand Catalan - you are shut out. I do not really ‘do’ politics.. but there are instances when I cannot ignore what is going on. Thankfully I live a lot further south (on the Costa del Sol).. but there is a certain amount of ‘Nationalism’ even here. I could only quote you a few instances where shop staff have been obstuctive (mosly pretending not to understand my Spanish - although it is perfectly good).. but I see that as more like ignorance that out and out persecution. (Although I know if you are a ‘Giri’ and it comes to a legal matter - the court are more likely to side with the Spaniard - Sad to say, but I think this is true.. Especially when I have had encounters with the Guradia in some cases. Most of the time they do their job and are helpful - but when I have to make a dennuncia against someone who is causing me aggro in my life -sometimes I have felt like I am not welcome)..
Are you able to move province? To a more friendly one? (I have accepted that I am an extranjero and will never be fully accepted here - but as long as we rub along - then no harm done. I have seen in the UK too - say somewhere like Cornwall - if you are an outsider you are treated with suspicion).
Finally - Are there no support or action groups to protect those who do not want independece for Catalunya?
My first choice would be to move if it were possible.
Good luck.
Regards,
Susan
I lived near Hospital Clinic before, like Rossello and Aribau, there i paid very high rent but was more less a nice safe area., a low key Catalan area with younger generations growing up and some hotels. Thing is even there i had to go to the bank in THAT area sometimes with my work cloths to get help., every time i went in the bank with shorts and a baseball cap and the teller would ask a colleague of his if he ever seen me before, or ask for ID, and i was DEPOSITING MONEY of all things, my wife told me one day that the teller told his that extrajeros are here again when we first walked in.
Some of the things i mentioned here happened all over Barcelona, outside in the suburbs i can accept that ignorance but here in the center i can not imagine how some people actually believe not only on there nation but as a blood race., i just told my friend i posted something here and he speaks perfect Catalan and is from France, he said one of his colleagues told him that no matter how well he spoke Catalan and how sneaky he was in getting his job at there office he does not have Catalan blood!
So i am learning that there are some serious issues here and i think people should discuss them openly, as for the supermarket, they are so afraid of dealing with the state now about complaints, they get them from catalans too they told me, who believe they should have more rights and trample over other’s liberties.
Just to be clear, Nationalism as i see online is defined as :
1: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
2: a nationalist movement or government
Sexism is when a person judges others based on there sex, as racism is there race, ethnic background or how ever perceived to attempt and judge a person’s character based on there appearance.
I think that the majority of these people could be racist but racist or nationalist they are still attempting to persecute others who have done nothing to them.
Persecute means:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.
Maybe your right about nationalism, i took the number 2 sentence which meant to annoy and bother, which is disturbing the peace why i consider it a crime to go up to anyone and tell them they are crap for been gay, foreign or whatever.
I am sorry to hear how hard living in Spain has been for some expats. I have been living in Barcelona for almost a year and I have had many interesting experiences but, I have tried not to allow them to change the way I see the people of Spain or Catalonia. I moved here from New York and was always taken aback to hear people say what they thought New York was all about based on their own experiences or what they saw on the news. When I was mugged in the park, I blamed the mugger, not New York. I still love New York City and I always will. Living there taught me to look at my interactions with individuals as just that: interactions with individuals. There are good and bad people no matter where you look or live.
I am a gay man now married to a Spanish/Catalan man because the majority of the Spanish population has no problem with our being married. That part of the population does not include most of my new in-laws however. In fact, some of them never speak to each other and they have lived in houses built up against each other in the same small town for generations. My own family has no interest in my life and they don’t seem to like each other much more. We are not welcome everywhere, but we don?t waste time on people who would only be a negative influence in our lives if we let them in or tried to be part of their lives.
As for the Catalan and Spanish nationality/identity issue: I have found reading up on the history of Spain has helped me understand many things. One of them is that the Spanish civil war was really not all that long ago by historical standards. Spain and Catalonia are still feeling and realizing the tragedy of it, and that is not likely to go away for several more generations.
It helps me a lot to try focusing on the people that do accept, and welcome me in their lives and spend as little time as possible thinking about the ones who don?t.
I sincerely hope you have lots of good people in your life, they make up for a lot in mine.
I am not saying everyone in Barcelona who is Catalan is racist or nationalist, i am just referring to those who cowardly impose there beliefs on others verbally or even take steps physically., to annoy another about it is persecuting them is what i was saying all along., either way whatever happened to the people in 1936 still does not give them the right to abuse the people in 2008, its like saying this was all part of Ageon Greece once and maybe they should give it back to Greece.
The common steps they take to harass people are never 1 on 1,
-They usually do this when they think they can get the support of other Catalans first, to engage in conversations hey are sure no one else will understand anyway unless you speak catalan, this is not even the problem,
-The problem is when they physically attack or do things TO OTHERS that raises questions to wether the police should start keeping track and monitoring them.,
-There are also those who use the same method to attack innocent people for been black, gay or any reason which also raises the question of racism here.
Its like if you put 3 older Catalan speaking people who do NOT know each other on a bus with non speaking Catalans you then have a 85% chance of verbal abuse or even domestic violence., This also goes on around the world ofcrouse but 85% chance is almost like where in Linz Austria your at no doubt to find people who have the same beliefs of Nazi Identities and feel the right to impose them on others., we are talking Nazis, how much more ignorant and criminal can you get then nationalists who think there nationality is a race.
One person i know who is also gay and catalan said that its not the catalans who are the problem here its the old nazi bastards who are so ignorant that they do not even realize that there hero Franco is who banned the language once.
FYI, my wife’s grandfathers on both sides where prisoners for fighting Franco, i heard allot about Spain’s Church Still Pushes Fascist Agenda today as much as Catalunya’s then. Does anyone out here have a group or organization to tackle ignorance’s like what these people are doing to others now?
Gabriel, This is obviously a matter that is close to your heart. If there are no support groups that currently exist (I took a quick look on http://www.angloinfo.com (barcelona) - and couldn’t see any - Just the regular English speaking/Ex pat groups…
Then perhaps start your own? I am sure there are people who share your views.
Yes, it is wrong for anyone to persecute another for whatever reason… But if it is just these older people who are doing it - Won’t they eventually die out? (Or are they indoctranating their off spring to think the same).
Do continue to stick by your beliefs - but perhaps standing back for a while and looking at the bigger picture - ‘How does it affect me’ might help. If you still feel you need to take action on this matter - then go ahead and form a group to combat this.
(A friendly word of warning - this can take a lot of energy and can lead to frustration along the way - But - if it is important to you - then you might have to do it).
Regards, SJ PS I am from a ‘minority’ and have experienced negative stuff over the years - but unless it has become over the mark - I just ignore their ignorance.
‘Predjudice’- fear of the unknown/unfamilar - ignorance
I agree with you, but the things people get away with here are outrages, like murders get off from jail., companies now are charging for calls when legally have to provide a toll free number to aid there clients, almost all companies in Spain now illegally use a 902 number., why, because people do nothing about it at all.
There must be some way to bring about the information, i met a few people who where protesting against abuse by Telefonica and other ISPS, and that was also kept silent by the media., youtube seems to be very effective these days.
Recently in madrid there was a bust on police who used prostitutes for over 20 years., not that no one can not afford to clean all this up out here, its those on top who refuse to that need to be exposed i think.
i looked all this up just now., lol, hope i dont give the wrong impression with al these videos, just saying maybe youtube and videos of all this would be a perfect way of bringing it into the light.
Sadly Gabriel it seems in every society there is ‘Injustice’. I think all we can do is do what we can - and know that we have done ‘something’ - be it just a drop in the ocean.
Good luck. sj
Everyday i see horrible persecution on the streets like old people hitting kids riding bikes on sidewalks, employees at supermarkets claiming security guards dont do there jobs to get them fired or exchanged for a Catalan guard instead of another national., i have seen some employees open products and putting them back half eaten to frame one guard when i was shopping, this one security guard told me what the company he works for believed was going on and his union protected him., i witnessed employees at Consum and Bon Prue harass customers too who where chinese or other foreign nationals living in Barcelona saying again that its like this in Catalonia.
Happens in all of Spain.
And in my experience most UK Expats don`t see it because their either not in Spanish society as much as they believe they are or there all wearing very dark glasses and the nerves arn`t connected to the brain via their eyeballs, or they just refuse to believe that Spain isn`t the family oriented paradise that the media claimed.
Its not a problem if you choose to ignore it.
Friends of mine from the UK live in Benalmadena, they allow their 16 yr old to ride a moped into Malaga every weekend and stay over the weekend with friends, her mother was unaware of the irish girl who has been missing from La Cala De Mijas the week before.Her reason for not being aware was they never watch the Spanish news, they get UK Sky on sat and spend there time watching UK news, they don`t speak much lingo and frankly haven`t mixed as they find the spanish odd.
But its sunny most of the time and they like the region, its safe and friendly.
I suspect if they spent the Saturday night in Malaga, they may well not allow the girl out on her own.
I ignore this most of the time, its when someone physically goes out of there way and attempts to inflict harm that im saying people should stand up against.
Today i spoke to 12 people who say they filed complaints called “Roja Declerations” against Decotholon, Consum, Ono etc etc, complaints ranging from been harassed by employees who pretend they can not speak spanish to cashiers breaking the goods just while charging for them acting like its not there problem, the most interesting one was with this italian guy who paid for a air conditioner at Miro on San Antone Barcelona, several south american people where just helped, all spoke spanish fine and got through there paper work, all accept this Italian guy who showed his Spanish ID and was told by the teller that she can not read the details cuase they are in Spanish, she claimed his name was Italia Milano, lol, he cancelled his order of course but filed a complaint.
Btw, it’s called an “Hoja de Reclamaci?n” Most businesses don’t want you to fill them out and will go out of their way to avoid it bc it means an automatic government inspection for them.
My wife is Catalan, i love her parents and sister like my own siblings, her uncle is really a cool guy and they all embraced me accept for the ones who live in the center of BC.
As for the “rojas decleracion” whatever its called, the police said its against the law if proven that a person refused to give anyone that document, by law every legally run company must have it, 3 complaints get that person fired and i am assuming that once in a while the wrong people can abuse this as well, like catalans who complain about people not speaking Catalan too using this document to get some in trouble.
I am not a hater, i agree with everyone here that there are haters not just in Barcelona, but yeah, it seems to be part of the Catalan culture to sit around and talk about things Catalunya means to some who never did a single thing to contribute while us expats paid allot for our pisos and bring all the money in, especially tourism.
I personally would only like to see this all over with one day, where this city has so much potential to be a really good place to live., maybe the old farts will fade away, but as i bring this up just about everyone who i spoke to about it has 10 to 20 stories,
One Catalan friend of ours (rare btw) just told me that you will get crap from even a younger generation for dressing up different, they have a racist stereo type for anything that walks, if you are not a blonde with blue eyes or do not have dark hair combed to the side, gelled, wear black pants with a italian pizza striped or white dress shirt like your going to church your not catalan.,
He once past a public high school wearing a baseball cap crooked imitating rapper and the kids where making gorilla impersonations scratching there chins and heads at the same time from across the street where he was standing, if they new he was catalan they would of told him off for dressing like whatever they all agreed to is weird or scared about, wether its gay or american pop culture and they feel its shoved in there faces via the media that they simply fear, or the fact that they are fading out and FAILING to learn spanish (which is what is going on) they act physically sometimes towards others which if can be proven should be delt with as a domestic crime.
If the cops gave fines they would make a bang for the buck with FINES if they could use videos or witnesses as evidence., thing is im against that idea too and just hope that maybe education is what they need. 😉
Spanish in general stereotype everybody and make remarks and gossip constantly.
You only have too watch Spanish TV or read magazines.
Only this week a relative has been in town to visit, we went to a bar around 9pm to eat and drink.
She decided to order with her food a Rum and coke, it was difficult to order as the waiter thought it odd, so he spoke to my wife in Spanish and asked are you sure etc etc.
So were sat eating and drinking and some Spaniards that arrived decided to make some fun about the copa with the meal, as we were sat speaking English, they assumed we didn`t speak Spanish, they mentioned the guiri`s etc.
Really funny seeing the faces when my wife with her strong Galician accent told a few insults about Spanish mentality to me a quiet a load level, to which I returned how you shouldn`t mock sub normal humans.
When I first arrived in Spain many years ago, we went out and I decided to order a glass of red wine, my OH said we don`t drink wine at 7pm in the afternoon.
I replied I couldn`t a for ex what anybody else does, I feel like a red wine now.
That kinda thinking is within the culture, from dress sense at different locations too conversations and food.
You don`t tend to see individuals and the reason why is because they get mocked and talked about.
1- i was on my Brompton Bike going along Diputacio behind 2 girls, all in the bici lane, and a old man hit one of the girls on he back while HE tried crossing the light, it was green for us., she stopped and started sobbing so i decided to go after the old man in a suite and say something, was like a impulse you know, i yelled “NO TOCAR VALE” , he said he did not touch her and i told him i saw it and she said it as well, then when i told him i can call the police if he likes for this he looked surprised, i was sure he was about to tell me he is Catalan or whatever, but he just shut up.
Felt strange telling a man my own fathers age not to touch woman.
2. My wife went to the bank with our new born to get a stamp on some payments made for taxes., the teller decided to only print one of 5 months receipts for something we need to declare on our taxes., on the mobile i told her to go back and get all 5 months now since monday morning i need to show them at 9 am., but they refused to give it to her saying they will do it over the weekend and she can have them ready monday by 10 am, its only 5 photocopies of receipts stamped from the last 5 months, she tried another bank and they told her that she had to do it at her branch.,
So i ended up going from one side of Barcelona to the other just to stand in line at a bank again, waited for the teller who talked up storms with old Catalan clients who where probably living of there pensions while a line of 8 people stood there and 4 more in the seats all rolling there eyes for these documents, and and as soon as we BOTH got to the teller she had them ready., but then she had to add that they never do this the same day when they are busy, so i asked her if this is why she did not do it right the first time when she could of printed al 5 copies instead of just one, i mean the time she took to explain all this she could of printed a news paper.
Seems like when there are 2 people its like you have a witness.
Spanish in general stereotype everybody and make remarks and gossip constantly.
When I first arrived in Spain many years ago, we went out and I decided to order a glass of red wine, my OH said we don`t drink wine at 7pm in the afternoon.
I replied I couldn`t a for ex what anybody else does, I feel like a red wine now.
That kinda thinking is within the culture, from dress sense at different locations too conversations and food
haha lol., your right about those so called traditions, i have friends here who claim they do what they want but between 2 and 4 they are hungry., they even did this in New York as well as London, everyone got a laugh out of it.
For me all this is what is left over after some have been “brainwashed from the dark ages”., hanging carnage of pigs legs outside your door so that everyone can see they are not jewish or muslim any more or at least eat pork was just one of the very few ideas knuckle heads thought of during those times.
